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Decertify TWU

Talk here about issues with unions or companies in the Telecommunications sector.
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NC
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Decertify TWU

Postby NC » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:41 pm

Elephant in the room time again. Anyone want to start taking a run at it?

Does anyone think there is an appetite for it? it's not that hard, but with the size of your bargaining unit it would take a lot of people's effort.
You can only apply to decertify the union during an open time period. Also, unless the Canada Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) agrees, you cannot apply during a legal strike or lockout.

When you have a Collective Agreement the open time periods are:

a. If the Collective Agreement is for 3 years duration, or less: during the last 3 months of the collective agreement.

b. If the collective agreement is for greater than 3 years: during the last 3 months of the third year, during the last 3 months of each year thereafter, or during the last 3 months of the collective agreement.

c. If the employer voluntarily recognized the union: at any time during the first year of the collective agreement. After the first year of the collective agreement, the timing rules set out in (a) and (b) above apply.

d. If a collective agreement is for 3 years or less and if the collective agreement has expired and if a new collective agreement has not been negotiated, a decertification application may be filed.
I will start a private area on the board and you people can run it from there. Anyone want to be the Moderator for that area?

Come on, what have you got to lose - "Member in Good standing"? :twisted:

Let's discuss the pros and cons here, right now in front of everybody.
Last edited by NC on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.


Find - Desiderata - read it

green1
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Postby green1 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:43 pm

Our collective agreement was for 5 years, not 3, so it's item B that should be highlighted, not D

Which also means that we aren't allowed to decertify right now. Funny how collective agreements never tend to be 3 years or less... leaves too much power to the employees.

*** BOLD moved to item "B" per green's post ~ NC ***



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Postby hawk » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:55 pm

Seems no one can read! If the contract is over 3 years then you get a vote the the last 3 months of the 3rd year and the the last 3 months of every year after. There doesn't seem to be any appetite as no one has taken the opportunity yet. As it should be Telus is bad enough now just imagine it without a union. That goes for all the managers on this site too. Remember your benefits and wages are a reflection of what the union gets. They maybe a little better or worse then you want but they would be not at all with the union!!!



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Postby green1 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:21 pm

The problem isn't that people like the union, it's that it's close to a physical impossibility to run a decert operation in a 3 month timeframe on a bargaining unit this large, especially without using any work time or resources (it would be illegal to put up a notice in the work place for example, to talk to someone about it at work, or to look up their phone number in any work database to call them at home) And all the while you have the very real threat of union thuggery to contend with.

Canada's labour laws STRONGLY favour the union. So much so that once your bargaining unit exceeds a couple dozen employees you are stuck for life.

As for your statement about how without a union we would have nothing... that is so absurd a comment that I nearly didn't reply to it. But here goes.
Without a union I would have the same job (Telus needs the work done regardless)
Without a union I would have over $1,000 more per year in my pocket (no union dues)
Without a union I would likely have a pay increase as well as I know for a fact that my performance is well above average.
Without a union I would have more schedule flexibility (I worked on setting the schedule for my work group, and most of the ridiculous limitations were union imposed)
Without a union I would have a better and more flexible benefit package (I've seen the management professional benefits package at TELUS, in fact I used to be on it, it's much better than the "one size fits none" plan that the union "negotiated")
Without a union my TELUS shares would be worth a lot more as we'd be able to fire the incompetent people who don't actually work and save a lot of money.
Without a union I would not lose any protection whatsoever as all those "hard fought victories" that union supporters keep talking about were long ago coded in to law. (so let's not try to pretend that without union representation in 2011 I would have to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week, or work without vacation, or any of that BS)

But the biggest thing is that without a union I would have the ability to succeed or fail on my own merits. If I do well, so does my compensation, if I don't deserve a job, I wouldn't have one.

I also have no idea what you mean about TELUS being "bad enough now"... seems to me that TELUS is one of the best companies to work for, with the exception of the union meddling that causes nothing but issues. I can just imagine how much nicer it would be without the TWU.



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Postby hawk » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:51 pm

I think the same restrictions apply to certification so except for the time frame. Union thuggery reference is ridiculous.
As far as you having the same job because your so good is a fallacy. Telus in last ten years has moved and fired more stellar managers and non- union workers then you can count and for no other reason than pad their bottom line.
What makes you think you would get a pay raise, are you that good? Or maybe you just wouldn't get as much of a pay reduction as everyone else.
You would also have to give up much of your holiday and all of your pl days as those aren't written into law.
Your work day would become much longer because as people left because the terrible conditions they would pile that work on you and wanting to keep Telus happy you'd do it even if took 12 hours a day. And if you think that is fantasy look at some of outside managers that have had their work loads double or triple and can't complain because their non-union and maybe only have few years left to retirement.
Hey if you do the scheduling in your department aren't you then management? What do you mean by more flexibility? I mean having a few
hours off between shifts. some days off and the ability to schedule my personal life then yeah I like the rules in the contract.



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Postby green1 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:04 pm

TELUS isn't going to reduce compensation, or increase hours of work, or any of that, because they still need the work done. Just like TELUS has to compete for customers, they have to compete for employees too. That means if they want good employees, they have to offer more than the competition.

I'm not management, but I was, until the union came in and re-classified me. That caused me to lose several benefits I already had, lowered my pay, and caused me to have to pay dues to a corrupt union. Funny how the union "protected" me by taking away what I already had... Just like the last contract negotiations... the only differences between the initial contract the union rejected, and the one they finally accepted were to make it WORSE for the employees (changed the lump sum to have union dues deducted, removed double time overtime for clerical members and replaced it with time and a half)

I don't do scheduling normally, but I was part of it at one point. I mean flexibility like 5 day weekends... too bad the union wouldn't allow it... You may like your negotiated contract... I'd rather take my chances. From what I've personally seen, the pay and perks are always better without union interference... Well unless you're a typical union supporter who refuses to do any real work... then you'd be out of a job...



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Postby hawk » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:05 am

Telus has already increased hours of work for none union workers. They don't do it officially but by intimidation. The work has to get done or we'll find somebody else that can do it threat. This works and is carried out everyday toward management staff. I agree your compensation probably was better when you were management, but that was because the union had set high rate and management gets some perks above that. You have to get something for extra security you give up. If you think that Telus wouldn't drop the wage scales across the board if the union disappeared you are delusional. This is the same company that claimed on public radio that it wouldn't contract out to the Philippines and India and that we'd be the highest paid technicians in Canada by the end of the current contract. They lied.



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Postby green1 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:45 am

Then let them lower the wage scales, let them increase the hours of work. I'll simply move to another company, that's what a free market is all about. Thing is, TELUS knows this, and they need the work done. It is impossible to force worse working conditions on youur employees than the competition and expect work to get done.

As for increased hours of work for managers, sure, some of them don't know how to say no and nearly work themselves to death, but there is no requirement to take on more than you can handle, and most don't and yet still have jobs. Further, there is the whole class of "management professional" who never seem to even be put in that situation.

There is nothing spectacularly evil about TELUS that they would risk loosing all their best talent just because there is no union. They need my services, I need a paycheque, it's a simple transaction.

The surest proof that someone doesn't deserve a job is their belief that without the union they wouldn't have one. People like that are better off unemployed.



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Postby wimpole1 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:22 pm

okay already!! we know the company does not want to get away from the twu. Why would they? That makes them a good union company read " COMPANY UNION" and still have a bunch of company manager wanna be's' (a** suckers) from the last contract up, giving away all our rights and benefits. Get real, there is no de cert going on. The company/union may agree on the senileworkers union(steel workers)
as way to appear to be playing the game but?
... Stay tuned



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Postby bby_joe » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:30 am

As bad as the current Union is, its the thin blue line that is keeping much of what people take for granted in place. Some 'colorfully' named people are delusional to believe otherwise.



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Postby green1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:50 am

Id love to know what it is that I "take for granted" that the union gives me and the millions of non union people in this country are missing out on... or if it is TELUS specific, what is the union giving me that the thousands of non union employees don't have?



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Postby hawk » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:46 pm

Ability to reach 6 weeks holiday, pl days, pension plan. payed sick days to name just a few.



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Postby green1 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:50 pm

Funny... our management professionals can get that too... and better more flexible bennefits, and the ability to earn raises for a job well done, and performance bonuses... and they don't have to pay union dues to do it.



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Postby bby_joe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:24 pm

Tell you what Greeny - I invite you to do some objective research of the history of the labour, start with the early guilds in europe. You'd be surprised what was bought with your ancestor's blood. When you've done that, we can talk.

I will be the first to admit that today's movement in general, and the twu specifically has betrayed that history but never underestimate what has been achieved in the past.



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Postby green1 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:48 pm

I know the history of labour, but it's just that, history. I don't get to work on the back of a horse, I'm not sending this message by telegraph, and I don't have an outhouse in my back yard at home. Those are all pieces of history that were very important at the time but have been rendered obsolete in today's world. Unions are no different (in fact ours has a lot of similarities to the outhouse...)

I see no reason to be a slave to an organization that hasn't had any relevance whatsoever in several decades. The world has moved on, unions either need to adapt to serve a useful purpose, or get out of our way.

I have a lot of respect for those people a hundred or more years ago fighting for fair working conditions, but I can't find even the slightest similarities between those people and today's big business unions.




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