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Decertify TWU

Talk here about issues with unions or companies in the Telecommunications sector.
hawk
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Postby hawk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:47 pm

Management and non-union staff have always needed to receive slightly better wages and benefits. That was to entice people away from the union and to offset the lack of security and in some cases lack of respect that the company should show to its employees. You seem to be tied up in the bonuses but the fact is the variable pay that the company forced on us in the last contract and under complete control by the company is rarely ever payed out in full because of standards laid out by the company and designed to fail. The failure is never due to employee short comings but because of stupid decisions made by upper management.



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Postby green1 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:25 pm

"not paid out in full" is much better than the union's preferred choice of "not paid out at all"
and if we were non-union we'd be getting even more of it because we'd also get the the personal component, the part that the union refuses to allow us right now.

And if non-union staff "always" make more (per your post) why would I want to be in a union who not only chains me to lower pay, but ALSO takes over $1000 a year from me for the privilege.

As for job security and respect. Those are both earned. I'm capable of getting both of those from the company on my own, and in fact the union only hampers my efforts on that front.



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Postby NC » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:36 pm

Management and non-union staff have always needed to receive slightly better wages and benefits. That was to entice people away from the union and to offset the lack of security and in some cases lack of respect that the company should show to its employees. You seem to be tied up in the bonuses but the fact is the variable pay that the company forced on us in the last contract and under complete control by the company is rarely ever payed (sic) out in full because of standards laid out by the company and designed to fail. The failure is never due to employee short comings but because of stupid decisions made by upper management.
Where to begin?
Management and non-union staff have always needed to receive slightly better wages and benefits.
hawk... what happened to the union line that union jobs are better paid than union-free? In a union-free workplace employees are paid for their "worth", not for the worth of the median (to be polite) employee. I suspect that Telus will pay more for a better employee and are therefore willing to try to get them out of the TWU and into Telus proper.
...away from the union and to offset the lack of security and in some cases lack of respect that the company should show to its employees
hawk... you are *actually* asserting that Telus's union-free employees went away from the union regretting the loss of "security" it provided instead seeking more money... really? "Lack of Respect" from Telus?? are you sure your reading this whole thread correctly? Lack of Respect from TELUS??!?! You people are part of a union that is supposed to be made up of YOU and they have reset the bar for disprespect. Does the TWU *respect* its members?
You seem to be tied up in the bonuses but the fact is the variable pay that the company forced on us in the last contract and under complete control by the company is rarely ever payed (sic) out in full because of standards laid out by the company and designed to fail. The failure is never due to employee short comings but because of stupid decisions made by upper management.
YOU AGREED to the "POS Contract" that your union and Telus agreed to. The TWU looked that contract over and said "Take it". You think unions are the solution to these problems. I thought hawks had good eyes... you still see the union as the solution... hawk, the bones have been cast the TWU and all unions in Canada are ineffectual not because of government pressures, they are dinosaurs because of global pressure to compete. Global pressure is driven by people like green1 and so many others who realize that in Canada (and less so Wisconsin) business unions are overpowered crime rings that extort funds from workers to provide the same protection the public system already provide.

Unions cry "we brought you the 5 day work week" and now that it's here they want to continue to charge for something that is legislated at every level, even in Canada. "Give us your money because in 1938 we fought for workers’ rights!!!"

F-Off unions, I owe you nothing. I get that for free anyway. Once contractor has built a house and been paid, do you see him coming back, cap in hand asking to be paid for the roof you now have over your head?


Find - Desiderata - read it

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Postby wimpole1 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:02 pm

the problem is not "Unions." The problem is the people that are elected as leaders. That is the same in politics. The members (in the case of the unions) like to blame B.C. or Alberta or Ontario and Quebec or in the U.S. for the leaders THEY elect. Non union tradesmen do get paid more but ask any of them (if they are working above and not under the table) and they will tell you their wages are predicated on what a union tradesman is getting. That is changing with the attacks on unions (and it must be admitted, hawk, a lot is brought on by themselves) you can get a guy to wire your house for 10 bucks an hour. It used to be around $28.00 per hour anywhere. We are having a race to the bottom, no question about that. If members don't care, why should the public? If there is more money (union dues) being spent on bailing out union leaders and their petty harassment charges in the public domain, why should anyone support/respect them. Their are many honorable leaders/councllors in our midst but over the past years they can't be heard because of the din of the b.s. the present twu executive running the show are parading in front of the members. It is a shame.



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Postby NC » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:14 pm

Wimpole, it's like a strata... if you have ever lived in a strata building you will know that the thing runs like shyte. The people who run them are anal retentive control freaks with a penchant for ego trips.

Then they say "Here... you do it if you think you can do better".

Business unions are run by capitalists, they are in the insurance business and just like insurance companies... good luck when you try to make a claim.


Find - Desiderata - read it

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Postby wimpole1 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:38 am

Then why don't the lamebrains that are in there now turn it over to people that can do it better? Because they don't care if anyone can do it better the perks are too good.



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Postby NC » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:01 am

When you have the keys to a multi-million dollar candy store I bet letting go is not top of the list of "must do" things. You saw what happened the last time someone came along to wrest the keys from a perceived corrupt leadership.

I don't think I could resist a few "perks" if I got hold of the sort of spending account your union leadership enjoys. It would take a better man than me to be that selfless.

But then again, I'm a self admitted capitalist... and taking that further, at least I can say it.

There in lies my point about unions, it's the age old "All animals are created equal, some just more equal than others."

What happened to hawk?


Find - Desiderata - read it

corwin1
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Postby corwin1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:01 am

Our collective agreement was for 5 years, not 3, so it's item B that should be highlighted, not D

Which also means that we aren't allowed to decertify right now. Funny how collective agreements never tend to be 3 years or less... leaves too much power to the employees.

*** BOLD moved to item "B" per green's post ~ NC ***
Maybe not in Alberta...BC CA's have traditionally been an averge of 2-3 years.


Wake up people! Democracy is dying!

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Postby corwin1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:07 am

The problem isn't that people like the union, it's that it's close to a physical impossibility to run a decert operation in a 3 month timeframe on a bargaining unit this large, especially without using any work time or resources (it would be illegal to put up a notice in the work place for example, to talk to someone about it at work, or to look up their phone number in any work database to call them at home) And all the while you have the very real threat of union thuggery to contend with.

Canada's labour laws STRONGLY favour the union. So much so that once your bargaining unit exceeds a couple dozen employees you are stuck for life.

As for your statement about how without a union we would have nothing... that is so absurd a comment that I nearly didn't reply to it. But here goes.
Without a union I would have the same job (Telus needs the work done regardless)
Without a union I would have over $1,000 more per year in my pocket (no union dues)
Without a union I would likely have a pay increase as well as I know for a fact that my performance is well above average.
Without a union I would have more schedule flexibility (I worked on setting the schedule for my work group, and most of the ridiculous limitations were union imposed)
Without a union I would have a better and more flexible benefit package (I've seen the management professional benefits package at TELUS, in fact I used to be on it, it's much better than the "one size fits none" plan that the union "negotiated")
Without a union my TELUS shares would be worth a lot more as we'd be able to fire the incompetent people who don't actually work and save a lot of money.
Without a union I would not lose any protection whatsoever as all those "hard fought victories" that union supporters keep talking about were long ago coded in to law. (so let's not try to pretend that without union representation in 2011 I would have to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week, or work without vacation, or any of that BS)

But the biggest thing is that without a union I would have the ability to succeed or fail on my own merits. If I do well, so does my compensation, if I don't deserve a job, I wouldn't have one.

I also have no idea what you mean about TELUS being "bad enough now"... seems to me that TELUS is one of the best companies to work for, with the exception of the union meddling that causes nothing but issues. I can just imagine how much nicer it would be without the TWU.
You are living in a dream world. Without a Union, your job would be done by somebody in the Philippines, Guatemala or India. Get a life, pro-management types are all the same.


Wake up people! Democracy is dying!

corwin1
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Postby corwin1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:17 am

Union laws in this country are EXTREMELY biassed in favour of the unions, and are in breach of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Until those laws are changed to give individuals a choice in unionization, "just vote them out" is an extremely naive idea.
Are you for real? Are you from the Moon? On planet Earth, we consider what you are saying to be Fantasy...Have you even read the Canadian Charter of Rights or the UN declaration? Can you show us Earthlings just where in these documents it says Unions contravene these statutes?


Wake up people! Democracy is dying!

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Postby green1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:07 pm

someone in the philipines would be doing my job? That's about the funniest thing I've seen all week... as I told the picketer following me from service call to service call throughout the city during the last strike. I'd love to see them try!

That said... the union hasn't even slowed that process down the slightest bit, and despite that, the company has actually voluntarily started moving jobs back "on shore" (hiring 250 call centre agents in Calgary right now)

I don't need a union to be sucessful. I'm fully capable of suceeding on my own merrits. Just because you can't doesn't mean you should drag the rest of us down.

As for the charter of Rights and Freedoms and the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Look up the sections on right to associate, they include implicitly the right to NOT associate, something that Unions violate with forced dues and in some cases forced membership.
Canadian courts have agreed that current Canadian laws violate our basic human rights. They have however refused to fix the issue.
Our forced dues come from the "Rand formula" which was supposed to be for only one specific situation, in fact Judge Rand stated in his decision that this should not be applied to other employees and other companies accross the country. But in our very pro-union country that part of the decision has been forgotten.

It's time we fix our broken laws and give power back to the employees!



corwin1
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Postby corwin1 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:25 am

I don't need a union to be sucessful. I'm fully capable of suceeding on my own merrits. Just because you can't doesn't mean you should drag the rest of us down.

As for the charter of Rights and Freedoms and the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Look up the sections on right to associate, they include implicitly the right to NOT associate, something that Unions violate with forced dues and in some cases forced membership.
Canadian courts have agreed that current Canadian laws violate our basic human rights. They have however refused to fix the issue.
Our forced dues come from the "Rand formula" which was supposed to be for only one specific situation, in fact Judge Rand stated in his decision that this should not be applied to other employees and other companies accross the country. But in our very pro-union country that part of the decision has been forgotten.

It's time we fix our broken laws and give power back to the employees!
I think you have misinterpreted the Declaration, and I would like to see an actual case where a Canadian court has agreed that this violates the Human rights act.
You also mentioned in an earlier post that you've had other offers without even trying and that some of them are for more pay/benefits. You complain that you have to pay dues yet you don't take one of the jobs you are offered. You complain that the Union reclassified your job and now you get less pay/benefits and are forced to pay dues. Did it ever occur to you that a job reclassification has to be approved by both the company and the Union?
Sounds to me like you are just unhappy about your lot in life and instead of getting involved to make change you come to a forum like this and whine about all that is wrong with organized labour.
As Darren would say "fit in or **ck off".


Wake up people! Democracy is dying!

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Postby green1 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:31 am

I could take one of the job offers... but you union people can't seem to get it through your thick skulls that I LIKE working at TELUS. I don't like the union, but I like my job. Why on earth would I let a union force me out of it?

Unions don't run my life. I do.

As for what the courts have decided, if you search on this site NC posted a link to the decision I'm referencing a while back, it was in relation to construction unions in Quebec. The courts ruled that forced unionization violated the worker's right to not associate, however decided not to overturn it because, of all things, the unions were too strong.



corwin1
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Postby corwin1 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:34 am

I could take one of the job offers... but you union people can't seem to get it through your thick skulls that I LIKE working at TELUS. I don't like the union, but I like my job. Why on earth would I let a union force me out of it?

Unions don't run my life. I do.

As for what the courts have decided, if you search on this site NC posted a link to the decision I'm referencing a while back, it was in relation to construction unions in Quebec. The courts ruled that forced unionization violated the worker's right to not associate, however decided not to overturn it because, of all things, the unions were too strong.
Who said anything about running your life? or forcing you out of a job?
As I mentioned in a previous post, the Company was just as responsible for your reclassification as the Union was, they both had to agree on the reclassification.

You like working at Telus but you know it's a unionized workforce and it has been for decades. You complain about it yet instead of moving on to one of these other jobs you have been offered, you stick around and blame the Union. If your job used to be management or exempt, why haven't you made every attempt at going back to a similar position? Telus management loves anti-Union people and by the sounds of it you are in their favour so I am actually quite surprised that they haven't tried to bring you back into the fold.

To address your point about the forced unionization, you have a lot to learn if you think that that situation is anything close to the norm in organized labour. Clearly the situation in Quebec is unique, to say the least. Comparing that situation to what you face now is absurd. Additionally there is nothing in that article/decision that states that Unions are too powerful but rather the situation is a political mess and the Court left it alone based on the History.

To be fair you have to compare apples to apples but your take on it is like comparing apples to water buffalo.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You blame the union for ruining your worklife and you want the Union to be accountable.
Unlike the situation in Quebec, you are not being forced into a Union and you have the right to choose because ultimately you must choose. Again you have known that Telus has been Unionized for decades. If you were in construction and you lived in Quebec you have no choice. Unless these circumstances apply to you, you do have a choice but rather than making it, you rely on others to try to change the landscape to your liking.

You are one of those people, IMHO, that would rather force others to change, rather than change yourself.

To be honest I have my issues with the TWU as well. I'm no stranger to conflict when it comes to politics. This Union needs a good smack but I'm willing to endure until I can help facilitate change that will make worklife easier for all employees, not just the unionized ones.


Wake up people! Democracy is dying!

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Postby green1 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:07 am

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Company was just as responsible for your reclassification as the Union was, they both had to agree on the reclassification.
was the company also responsible for all the quebec people being unionized without a vote? You know, despite the company fighting the application in court?
You like working at Telus but you know it's a unionized workforce and it has been for decades. You complain about it yet instead of moving on to one of these other jobs you have been offered, you stick around and blame the Union. If your job used to be management or exempt, why haven't you made every attempt at going back to a similar position? Telus management loves anti-Union people and by the sounds of it you are in their favour so I am actually quite surprised that they haven't tried to bring you back into the fold.
I don't know why I bother, you just don't grasp this point... I LIKE MY JOB. Not another job, the one I do every single work day. Not one at a different company, not a different one in the same company MY job. Is that really such a foreign concept to union shills that they just can't begin to wrap their mind around it?
To address your point about the forced unionization, you have a lot to learn if you think that that situation is anything close to the norm in organized labour
Tell that to the Lively seven, the Quebec TELUS employees, and the thousands upon thousands of people forced to pay dues to organizations they want no part in.
Unlike the situation in Quebec, you are not being forced into a Union and you have the right to choose because ultimately you must choose.
No, I can't choose. I have to pay extortion money to an organization that I want no part in, and who actively works against my best interest at all times, an organization which has threatened to sue me, threatened physical violence against me, and actively violated canadian law to prevent me from having any say.
You are one of those people, IMHO, that would rather force others to change, rather than change yourself.

To be honest I have my issues with the TWU as well. I'm no stranger to conflict when it comes to politics. This Union needs a good smack but I'm willing to endure until I can help facilitate change that will make worklife easier for all employees, not just the unionized ones.
You state you have issues, but instead of acting you simply hope they will improve.
At least I am doing something about it. You don't have to like what im doing, but im not sitting idly by while my rights are violated.




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