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A definition of job security

This group moderates their own board. Notify them of any issues. Is job action the wisest choice? What is our objective ?

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A definition of job security

Postby lsspecht » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:24 pm

The TWU has spent alot of time and effort telling us that this is about "job security". Others have said that there is no such thing a job security. Well there is.

When my boss knows that the job he is paying me $22.00 an hour for would cost him $23.00 an hour to get someone else to do it, I have job security. However if he can get it done just as well for $20.00 an hour I have no security and need to prove my value to my employer.

This is life in the market place people. You sell your labour by the hour. If it can be gotten cheaper else where then it will be unless you prove you are worth it.

Len



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Postby Miles » Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:53 am

Brilliant.

So what about the people with phone jobs who can be replaced for 5$ a day by people in another country that do the job just as well as you.

Also college graduates with good communication skills.


How do they fit into your philosophy. If you did work in I&R for the last 20+ years like you said... you would realize that your own job could be contracted out to yourself for less money.



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Postby alec » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:16 am

You are both right.

The sad part is that this is exactly what is happening all over North America. Jobs that can be contracted out overseas to save money are leaving by the thousands. And it is not just the "folks talking on the phone" job. Jobs in engineering and R&D are going to countries like India and China.

Certainly Unions can slow this trend but at what cost? Choosing a violent response to outsourcing may work in the near term but we are not living in the 1930's (or 50's) any longer. Corporations will find ways to work around Unions and will alwasy be guided first and foremost by their bottom line.

I must admit I don't have the answer to this one... A couple of thoughts...

The closer that Unions and management work together the better the deal seems to be over the long term.

Education: starting when our kids are kids. We can't build a future for them by having violent confrontations with corporations so we have to put them on a path of education that will provide them with as secure a future as possible. They must be ready for the "New Marketplace" (what ever that will be). In a way we old guys are all living in the past and a lot of the presnet problems are due to our own resistance to change.

Obviously goverment must be involved especially if we are to educate our childrem properly to prepare them for the New Marketplace.



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Postby Miles » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:55 pm

You are both right.

The sad part is that this is exactly what is happening all over North America. Jobs that can be contracted out overseas to save money are leaving by the thousands. And it is not just the "folks talking on the phone" job. Jobs in engineering and R&D are going to countries like India and China.

Certainly Unions can slow this trend but at what cost? Choosing a violent response to outsourcing may work in the near term but we are not living in the 1930's (or 50's) any longer. Corporations will find ways to work around Unions and will alwasy be guided first and foremost by their bottom line.

I must admit I don't have the answer to this one... A couple of thoughts...

The closer that Unions and management work together the better the deal seems to be over the long term.

Education: starting when our kids are kids. We can't build a future for them by having violent confrontations with corporations so we have to put them on a path of education that will provide them with as secure a future as possible. They must be ready for the "New Marketplace" (what ever that will be). In a way we old guys are all living in the past and a lot of the presnet problems are due to our own resistance to change.

Obviously goverment must be involved especially if we are to educate our childrem properly to prepare them for the New Marketplace.

Great, so while we all agree outsourcing hurts our continent, country and communities and families

It's best not to make a ripple because we can't stop it. Instead it is better to plan a few decades from now and educate our children better. BTW no one said violence but you. I am supporting Canadian jobs for the future by giving up mine.


I am a college graduate in my mid twenties. My parents worked so they could give me an education..

Your suggestion is I then work harder to give my kids masters degree's. You think it will be harder or easier then?


That is the attitide that let the first job go overseas. It's the attitude that continues it. And the attitude that will cost you your job one day


The worst thing is your view is too shortsighted to take into account the majority of Canadains who cannot afford post secondary education. All those people will become a burden on your well educated children.


That is American influence not Canadian.



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Postby !(a.scab) » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:23 am

I don't think anyone's going to like this post, but this is my belief anyway:
Why shouldn't the best trained, smartest, hardest working person get the job, especially if they're willing to do it cheaper? Regardless of whether they're in Edmonton or Bangladesh?

I once met a PhD from India who had come to Canada only to pick cabbage in an Abbotsford field for 16 hours a day at $6 an hour (that was minimum wage at the time).
I also once met a university professor of mathematics from Belgrade who came to Canada only to stock shelves at Work Wear World for $8.10 and hour.

Why would they do this? Because we've got BS laws setup to protect Canadian jobs - laws that don't recognise training in foreign institutions... what, you're telling me math is different in Yugoslavia, or Indian bodies respond to medicines differently? These poeple did what it took to survive, and to keep their families fed while fat lazy untrained unskilled, unmotivated whiners and complainers sit back in their $22/hour jobs bitching about all their jobs getting shipped to the Philipines.

All I've gotta say is, if someone can do the job better than me, has more training than me, and is willign to work harder and longer for less money, then WTF do I deserve the job over them? I don't. I may not like it, but I'll respectfully step aside.

People are so quick to forget that it goes both ways - we don't even let hightly qualified imigrants have the jobs they deserve when they physically come here, and we bitch even louder when they stay home and bid on jobs they can do from that location. You can only pretend that this virtual army of highly skilled labour doesn't exist for so long... one day in the not so distant future they'll have all the jobs they deserve, and people like you will be sitting on your thumbs saying "what the heck happened? but...but.. I finished highschool! I deserved that job... I'm Canadian!"

You think a few labour rallies are going to stop 1.5 billion highly tallented and hard working people that are quite happy (and becoming wealthy) by making one fifth of what you do?



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Postby NC » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:19 pm

What about the company who, having 50 workers making $20/hr is suddenly in competition with another with 70 employees making $14.30/hr. (works out to the same per hour cost to the Employer)… which one lives, which one dies? Who should survive?



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Postby Miles » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:03 pm

What about the company who, having 50 workers making $20/hr is suddenly in competition with another with 70 employees making $14.30/hr. (works out to the same per hour cost to the Employer)… which one lives, which one dies? Who should survive?
Yep it's a race to the bottom.


It really seems there is some sort of misunderstanding


The people saying 'that if someone can do a job better and cheape, the job should be outsourced' just don't seem to understand their own job can be contracted out to themselves for a lesser wage.



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Postby !(a.scab) » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:20 pm

The people saying 'that if someone can do a job better and cheape, the job should be outsourced' just don't seem to understand their own job can be contracted out to themselves for a lesser wage.
Oh, I TOTALLY get that - I am my own job security. I make myself valuable by keeping my skills current, and investing in my own abilities. If/when the day ever comes that someone more talented and cheaper than me comes along, that's the day I don't deserve that job anymore - I have no delusions of "a job for life" - if the day ever comes that I'm completely redundant, I'll pack up and move on - my employer only owes me something as long as I'm a valuable, productive employee - not a second longer.

What I've got to ask is, what are YOU so fearful of (open ended question to all picketers)? Do you really have that little faith in your own worth that you feel you'd be justly targetted as surplus if the company was given the opportunity to sweep away some of the flotsam?



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Postby Bob_Loblaw » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:43 pm

I hear so much frustration out on the picket line and see it here.
What is the common denominator?

Lack of comminication from the union!

They must be aware of all these opinions, yet seemingly choose not to answer the questions! Why do we have to try and glean information about our futures from supposition and rumours?

There are many good points brought up by both sides here in this forum and it is great to see the process of debate take place here, but where is it getting us.

I believe we need action. Instead of airing out frustration, we need action. Is there a way of making the union listen to our questions? They do not reply to emails or phone calls. Is there something in the union constitution that would allow a non confidence vote? How can that be brought forward? Is this union truly a democracy?

I am tired of seeing our hard earned dollars being paid to lawyers who banter back and forth and yet, get us no where. I wonder how much we have spent there?

Does anyone want to rally together to really question the union?



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Postby Miles » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:24 pm

Oh, I TOTALLY get that - I am my own job security. I make myself valuable by keeping my skills current, and investing in my own abilities. If/when the day ever comes that someone more talented and cheaper than me comes along, that's the day I don't deserve that job anymore - I have no delusions of "a job for life" - if the day ever comes that I'm completely redundant, I'll pack up and move on - my employer only owes me something as long as I'm a valuable, productive employee - not a second longer.
The people saying 'that if someone can do a job better and cheaper, the job should be outsourced' just don't seem to understand their own job can be contracted out to themselves for a lesser wage.
Skipped over that part and just repeated yourself? Didn't think of it?


Kind of undercuts your entire opiniopn right?



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Postby !(a.scab) » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:28 pm

Miles you're such a brainiac - you just quoted YOURSELF - clever FUD tactic bucko, nice how you conveniently forgot to mention WHO the quotes were from...
The people saying 'that if someone can do a job better and cheape, the job should be outsourced' just don't seem to understand their own job can be contracted out to themselves for a lesser wage.
Oh, and a really smooth (not) deflection from the question directed to you:
What I've got to ask is, what are YOU so fearful of (open ended question to all picketers)? Do you really have that little faith in your own worth that you feel you'd be justly targetted as surplus if the company was given the opportunity to sweep away some of the flotsam?



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Postby Koot » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:16 pm

Just a note to everyone
I like the diverse opinions posted here, but I hope we can
keep proper etiquette, no name calling etc. It really detracts from the valid points a person is trying to make
:!:



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Postby !(a.scab) » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:33 pm

Is bucko a bad name?

buck·o (bŭk'ō) pronunciation
n., pl. -oes or -os.

1. A blustering or bossy person.
2. Irish. A young man; a lad.



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Postby Miles » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:14 pm

Scab I will anwser you question. I though it would be polite for you to answer my question before posting your own. I also did not try to hide the quote was mine. I thought it was obvious


Here ya go:
What I've got to ask is, what are YOU so fearful of (open ended question to all picketers)? Do you really have that little faith in your own worth that you feel you'd be justly targetted as surplus if the company was given the opportunity to sweep away some of the flotsam?

I am not fearful of my OWN job, I have stated this before. I work in a call center. It is a job that I work and enjoy between schooling. I didn't plan on working the job while I was in school. It would have been really nice though to stay at Telus during the work stoppage to save money for tuition



I will not go to work because of all the mothers who work in 411 who will have their jobs outsourced first. I do not believe 20 yr employee's should be treated this way and think that 411 is still an important part of customer service.

I will not go to work because there are 20 yr I&R employee's that could have their own jobs outsourced to themselves for less money. They are trades people who are not very employable outside of their current job and feel they need the protection on contract language the union wants.

Thought I made that clear.


Now, your turn.


How does your philosophy/mantra apply when your job is outsourced to yourself for less money. You obviously have the same experience, tools and education as yourself.
Last edited by Miles on Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby !(a.scab) » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:54 pm

Hi Miles, thanks for the reply - now to address your question.
That's an interesting situation... let's see if I understand correctly:

the company coming up to an employee and saying "Look, we really like you, you do good work, and you've put 20 years of dedicated service into this company. You've never caused us any problems - in fact, you're a model employee. The problem is, we just discovered a firm out of BoraBora that is willing to throw FIVE employees at your job for HALF of what we pay you now... all of those employees have PhD's to boot! Surely you would agree that it would make good business sense to go with the contractors, right? But like I said, we really like you, and we want you to stick around - to show you how much we care, we'd like to invite you to be the first to tender a bid on your own job. In fact, if you come in anywhere under 50% of your current salary, I can pretty much promise you that the job will be yours. Remember, we could get five BoraBoran's for that same price, so we're really doing you a favour..."

Am I on the right track so far?

If so, let me say first off that I've never heard of this situation happening before - though it does sound, hypothetically, possible...

My first reaction would be, if I were a TELUS employee, to say "In that fine contract you offered me, you said I would never lose my job due to outsourcing - so you can keep me in the position where you admit yourself that I'm doing great, or you can make me clean urinals for all I care... at the end of the day, you can't PAY me any less, and you certainly can't fire me. Your fine contract says so, in black and white."

My second reaction would be "Cool! Since your fine contract offer says that I'll be retrained at your expense if my job is outsourced, I'd like to take this opportunity to get trained on something really elite and cutting edge - like personal satellite communicators, or global portable wireless broadband, or something else that'll put me into an exciting new field with lots of demand and growth potential!"

Of course, there are always lots of other options, like "well, with 20 years of service, I was thinking of retiring in 10 years anyway, but maybe I'll just taking that generous package you're offering, buy a boat, and cruise the carribean for the next 5 years instead..."
...or...
"Hew, you've just given me an idea, I think it would be a really cool life experience to pack up and move to BoraBora - get a job with that outfit you were talking about, and see what it's like to live like a king....or better yet, I'll TAKE your offer of a 1/2 price pay cut and move my a** to BoraBora - hell, you said this job could be done from there, right? well now I'm making FIVE TIMES what the average person there needs to live off of, and I'm doing the exact same job... I'll be living like a king!"

Those were just my first reactions - I've got a bunch more, but I'm sure you get the idea...




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