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Why are jobs leaving North America?

This group moderates their own board. Notify them of any issues. Is job action the wisest choice? What is our objective ?

Moderator: Koot

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Why are jobs leaving North America?

Postby Koot » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:46 am

As sad as it is, jobs are leaving North America. Which jobs are leaving?
The jobs that are portable. Jobs that do not necessarily require that they are done in North America. Jobs like Software design, Engineering, and even Call centres. But why are they leaving North America. Because in North America we do not value education highly. As I grew up in Europe, I noticed a very different culture towards education. Students did not spend a couple of years at university to get an extended highschool degree. B.A. Students went directly in a program to become doctors or engineers etc. In North America we had so many resources that any one with a high school diploma got a good paying job. We forgot to invest in the future and now we are being chalenged by Asian countries which did invest in education. Our unions also played a vital role in this. In my Union the TWU job positions are won on seniority alone. Skils and aptitude does not enter the equasion. This is a prevailing North American attitude and brings down the quality of the worker. Why should any one invest in night school if senhiority is the only determining factor. So the company has to spend money and effort in training its employees. It must be tempting for companies to just get that expertise somewhere else. :(



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Postby lsspecht » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:16 pm

I agree Koot, with the focus on senority alone, where is the motivation to work hard or improve yourself and your skills if that guy hired five minutes before you will get the posting anyways? It just isn't there. I also feel that this has helped to develope the attitude that the company "owes" someone a job. This makes no sense to me, if i am doing my job well, and it is needed, the the company will keep me around. If however, the need for what I do vanishes, and I haven't prepared for it by developing my skills and marketability, why is that the company's fault?



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Postby goatdancer » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 pm

The focus on seniority is to prevent management from handpicking their special pets for job postings. Here's a scenario - employee A - 20 years on the job, good worker, consientious, may need some training for a new technology, paid top rate, would like to move to a new field. Employee B - fresh out of school, gungho, willing to suckhole to the boss, paid lower rate. Who do you think the boss will take? I can bet it will be B. A will never have the chance to show his ability to take on the new challenge, despite the fact that he may end up to be better suited in the long run. Eventually B will beome senior and the circle continues. This is not about owing someone a job, its about giving them the opportunity to advance with the changing technology. Leaving the decision solely in the hands of a manager is like leaving the coyote to watch the chickens.



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Postby lsspecht » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:11 pm

The focus on seniority is to prevent management from handpicking their special pets for job postings. Here's a scenario - employee A - 20 years on the job, good worker, consientious, may need some training for a new technology, paid top rate, would like to move to a new field. Employee B - fresh out of school, gungho, willing to suckhole to the boss, paid lower rate. Who do you think the boss will take? I can bet it will be B. A will never have the chance to show his ability to take on the new challenge, despite the fact that he may end up to be better suited in the long run. Eventually B will beome senior and the circle continues. This is not about owing someone a job, its about giving them the opportunity to advance with the changing technology. Leaving the decision solely in the hands of a manager is like leaving the coyote to watch the chickens.
Wow, you opinion of junior techs and managers is truly underwhelming.

The problem I have with seniority only is not a good senior worker vs. bad junior problem. I agree that the most diligent worker should get the opportunities. Performance and workmanship must be recognized so that you have the incentives to strive for that next level of achievement.

I think that the point you where trying to make was that a work force needs to have protection from forms of nepotism. If this was the original goal of seniority than it has failed. There are dispute mechanisms that can be implemented to guard against this, so why not look at those.

All in all, I don't really have that much problem with a 20 yr member getting a posting over a 1 year member. In all work places, there are dues to be paid and wrungs to be climbed to advance. The problem I have is with a 2 yr member getting a posting over a 1 yr member who is better qualified simply because he has been there a little longer.



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Postby goatdancer » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:29 pm

My opinion of junior techs and managers stems from a lot of experience. 33 years to be precise. They are not all like that, but there are enough around to be a serious problem. Too many times the dispute mechanisms are a dismal failure. I have found that when there are a lot of 'grey areas' its very hard to deal with a dispute.

Don't you think the 2 year guy should have a chance to show his stuff? Too many times the apparent advantages of so-called qualifications don't really result in the best person to do the job. There are a lot of intangibles that could influence the final result.



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Postby Wwood » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:49 pm

The focus on seniority is to prevent management from handpicking their special pets for job postings. Here's a scenario - employee A - 20 years on the job, good worker, consientious, may need some training for a new technology, paid top rate, would like to move to a new field. Employee B - fresh out of school, gungho, willing to suckhole to the boss, paid lower rate. Who do you think the boss will take? I can bet it will be B. A will never have the chance to show his ability to take on the new challenge, despite the fact that he may end up to be better suited in the long run. Eventually B will beome senior and the circle continues. This is not about owing someone a job, its about giving them the opportunity to advance with the changing technology. Leaving the decision solely in the hands of a manager is like leaving the coyote to watch the chickens.
Managers who make those kinds of decisions don't keep their jobs very long. Managers who want to be around a while hire the best people for the job. The best managers surround themselves with the best people regardless of age, seniority, pay, etc. To do anything less is suicide. This may have gone on in the old days (the days the union still thinks they are in) but not in the new Telus.


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From a distance I just cannot comprehend what all this fighting is for. Bette Midler

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Postby lsspecht » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:25 pm

My opinion of junior techs and managers stems from a lot of experience. 33 years to be precise. They are not all like that, but there are enough around to be a serious problem. Too many times the dispute mechanisms are a dismal failure. I have found that when there are a lot of 'grey areas' its very hard to deal with a dispute.

Don't you think the 2 year guy should have a chance to show his stuff? Too many times the apparent advantages of so-called qualifications don't really result in the best person to do the job. There are a lot of intangibles that could influence the final result.
Yes, I think that the 2yr guy should have a chance. I think that everyone should have a chance to "show their stuff". That is why I say that the stuff you have shown should be included in posting descisions, not who you know or how long you have hung around.

Why is such a concept so distastsful to you? Why do you feel that a person who has coasted for 2,5,10,20 or however many years doing the minimum needed to avoid notice deserves a posting over a person who has busted their hump but been around for less time?

If dispute mechansims aren't working, why not work to fix them?

Len



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Postby goatdancer » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:51 am

Wwood

The 'new TELUS' does not keep only the best managers around. There are lots of good managers that were let go and some real losers left behind. Those good managers that dared not toe the new corporate line, ie total obedience, never question bad decisions from the top, were let go. Any large company that is run by one individual who does not listen to the subordinates for input and ideas, is in for a rough ride.

lsspecht
'Why do you feel that a person who has coasted for 2,5,10,20 or however many years doing the minimum needed to avoid notice deserves a posting over a person who has busted their hump but been around for less time?' Those are your words, not mine.



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Postby Koot » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:32 pm

Havign grown up in Europe, The Netherlands actually, I have worked under the system where seniority was not the only deciding factor. Managers were being rewarded for running their departments in the best way possible. So it was in their interest to get the best person for the job. This meant that some one who had shown some initiative and took some courses that fit the job did get credit for that when it did come to awarding the job. Generally speaking the system worked well and it did not invite nepotism. I think even in the old days with BCTEL it was wrong to award a job to an individual who needed a few years to come along. Often people only bis on jobs because they wanted to retire in that location. Now in a highly competetive climate we can no longer afford that kind of procedure. I think people who bid on jobs should be able to explain why they are the best for that job. Also a manager should be able to explain why he did pick a certai applicant .



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Postby lsspecht » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:04 pm

Goatdancer
I see, you only want to accuse and support the status quo. If you disagree with what I have said, point out where and we can discuss the issues. The only point you seem to want to make is manager=bad, junior members=bad, senior members=good.

If I have mis-interpreted your point, make it clear where I mis-understood, please. If you don't support senior only selection, then say so otherwise the guestion you quoted me on (you know the one you didn't answer) stands



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Postby Wwood » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:49 pm

Wwood

The 'new TELUS' does not keep only the best managers around. There are lots of good managers that were let go and some real losers left behind. Those good managers that dared not toe the new corporate line, ie total obedience, never question bad decisions from the top, were let go. Any large company that is run by one individual who does not listen to the subordinates for input and ideas, is in for a rough ride.

lsspecht
'Why do you feel that a person who has coasted for 2,5,10,20 or however many years doing the minimum needed to avoid notice deserves a posting over a person who has busted their hump but been around for less time?' Those are your words, not mine.
GD
You are correct that some good managers were let go and some bad ones kept. I would never suggest that there is perfection in the process. There never is. I should point out though that has been more turnover per capita at the VP level than any other in the company. That can certainly be a symptom of hanging on to the wrong people. Eventually it catches up to you is my point.


From a distance you look like my friend, even though we are at war.
From a distance I just cannot comprehend what all this fighting is for. Bette Midler

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Postby goatdancer » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:09 pm

lsspecht

I think the question you refer to is the 'floater'? If so, here goes. I have seen the odd floater in my time. I do not support them in the least. My statements to many of my fellow employees were 'you're getting paid well to do your job. Earn it'. The problem with floaters is directly related to poor management. It was easier to ignore the odd floater than address the issue - human nature being what it is. There are lots of remedies to deal with the issue but it requires guts and resolve. Even a union can't do much for a puppy-maker if the proper procedures are followed - lots of documentation to prove the dogging, verbal and written warnings.




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